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Iraq Armchair War Diaries

On Aug 1, 2004, at 7:33 AM, Kraig Grady wrote:

Ah here we have the voice of Penteus
no where near the mark boys. kings have been killed since time began. and corruption has always been
the way of the rulers. american history is full of it
(the Kentucky cycle, the pulitzer prize winning play showed that and the people were well aware of being ripped off)

Dionysis and you better not cross him with you so called dead bland narrow reason cause he will come up an bite him on the ass.
all you want to do is go back to male domination, well its too late and it ain’t gonna happen.
the maenads are waiting in the forest and they will rip you apart.

look at you fools
long hair, the tambourine, love-ins, Dionysis, but neither of you know him at all.
even jesus had to make the water into wine as a tribute to him. they fail to tell you the great things those at that party went on to do for years afterwards, imagine, what the wine of jesus would do to you. Even at the end, he had to return to this one.

Perhaps you boys should read the bacchae, since the whole story of pilate and jesus is based on it, with a different ending for the god for slaves.
i am sure you preferred the car culture of the 50’s as a superior time. the commie cold war, black lists, yes this was much better. the depression, also done by the conservatives.

nothing creative came out of any other decade, without the 60’s there wouldn’t be any music to really listen to, cause what is good since is based on it.
each decade since has been worse and worse, economically pitiful which corresponds with the rise of conservative, and the christian right. they have bankrupt the country with fake morals and robbery. just look at the numbers. the average person lost 10 per cent of their income in the last 2 years according to the IRS. you guys are ostriches.

On Aug 1, 2004, at 4:28 PM, Jeffrey Herbert Spencer wrote:

              I will try to refrain from being rude, but it will be hard. I can’t take seriously one
              word this guy wrote. To even try to respond to his silly arguments gives me
              a headache. In sum: this guy likes rock-and-roll, he has a deficient under-
              standing of the ‘sixties (let me guess, he was born in 1970—-if not, well….),
              and he doesn’t understand BACCAE or the entire body of the work of Euripides.
              Dionysis is horror. This is mytho-dillitantism, Sunday afternoon blather.

 
 
              As for death of the father, history begins anew for each generation. The facts
              that Lincoln, Garfield, and McKinley had been assassinated were interesting
              to us brats, but definitely Dark Ages in every respect. Mr G has either forgotten,
              or did not live in the period, that WE believed we lived in Blake’s New Jerusalem,
              The Best of All Possible Worlds. 1960-1963 probably saw one of the greatest
              explosions of optimism in the history of the world within the borders of the U.S.A.
              The entire universe appeared ready to open to us, from the stars to the atoms.
              There is not one of us living who cannot recall that tremendous optimism:
              THE NEW FRONTIER!!!!! JFK’s assassination burst that balloon to hell—-
              add to that the seediness of LBJ, the daily ghastliness of Vietnam, the split in
              the fabric of our society——HORROR, HORROR, HORROR!!!!! Altamont and the
              Manson slaughters blew away the Woodstock fantasy. What planet is this guy on?
              His only excuse can be being too young to have lived through that exhilarating
              and terribly unhappy time. JFK’s death socked us all in the solar plexus because
              we believed something that horrible was the provence of other nations. And, the
              whole dreadfulness of it—-his head being blown to pieces&etc. The whole feeling
              of living in a perfected society was blown to bits. And, of course, to so many of us
              Kennedy was a living HERO—-PT 109, the stand against the Soviets in Berlin and
              “Cuber”—-he was our Pericles, our Achilles, our TOTEM against disaster. His
              murder by a revolting creep sullied us all. How could such a shining Lancelot be
              undone by a vermin unfit to breath the same air!!!!!!! WE ALL FELT DANGEROUS-
              LY EXPOSED ALL OF A SUDDEN. That’s what happens when you lose a heroic
              leader. Old Jack looks much less heroic now, but that’s 41 years of hindsight.
              At the time, to so many here and all over the world, he was all that was good and
              great. His death was DEVASTATING. It wasn’t just the death of the father, it was
              the death of our HERO-CHAMPION—-our talisman against disaster.
             
             

John Dentino wrote:

Here’s a fucking great essay on this whole thing:

“The Bacchae, the “Missing Prince,” & Oliver Stone’s Presidential Films”

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0412/is_1_28/ai_63566578

Kraig, I think you’re making it too black and white. Repression does indeed lead to vengeful destruction at the hands of Dionysus. But so does worship of Dionysus to the exclusion of all other gods.

And let’s not forget the difference between art and sacred myth. Euripides’ work, as art, doesn’t necessarily reflect the truth about human beings and their psyches. It seems to me that, as much truth as there is contained in the Bacchae, it’s essentially a polemical work, or if it is more complex, then people have misinterpreted Euripides.

IT IS RATIONAL TO RESPECT THE POWER OF DIONYSUS AND ACKNOWLEDGE HIS GREAT POWER. IT IS SILLY AND NAIVE TO WORSHIP HIM.

“As Euripides strove to show, the central problem is the control of these powerful instinctive forces by the conscious mind. As King Pentheus discovered, to try and suppress them entirely is suicidal. The attempt provokes an explosion in which all barriers are overthrown. The conscious mind must ride these forces as a man rides a powerful horse. This explains, what has puzzled so many, why the worship of Apollo at Delphi was combined with the worship of Dionysos. It was Nietzsche who started the confusion with his false antithesis between Apollonian and Dionysiac religions. Since then, numerous writers have classified not only theoleptic religions, but periods such as Romanticism, as Dionysiac; and have treated religions and periods of cerebral control (including Classicism) as being Apollonian. But Apollo was the symbol of moderation, the golden mean, the Greek conception of measure. The extremes of patrist Puritanism are not Apollonoian, while, on the other hand, the Romantics never abandoned themselves to group orgies. Apollo did not deny the unconscious, and the Delphic sibyl, who spoke from the unconscious in a state of trance, was under his aegis. Apollo and Dionysos are not opponents but partners.the Dionysiac worship did not only provide an outlet for libido, it also provided an outlet for the destructive and aggressive urges of Thanatos. The ceremony ended with the tearing to pieces of a living kid, and the immediate devouring of it. Indeed, it has been supposed that at some stage in its development, it was the priest himself who was torn to pieces. In Euripides’ Bacchae, it is King Pentheus who tries to impose order on the Bacchae and who is torn to pieces. This is reflected in the mythology, in which it is the god himself who is torn to pieces by the Titans.”

“Whether or not, at any historical period, an actual person was so sacrificed is less important than the mythological meaning. It seems feasible that Euripides intended to portray the effects of conscious control of instinctive drives. When that control is too rigid, the unconscious forces are likely to burst out in a violent form and destroy the conscious. From some such roots derives the institution of the orgy of which the Saturnalia is an example: an occasion when it is permissible ’ to indulge all those desires which are normally kept under control. The orgy is a useful, perhaps an indispensable, social safety valve.

Nevertheless, while there are advantages in providing ceremonies in which such drives may be given outlet, so that their consequences can be limited, there is also a danger that such Ceremonies will suffer a steady deterioration. By late Roman times, the Dionysiac worship seems to have deteriorated into a secret society engaged in practices of a revoltingly sexual and sadistic kind.”

—“Sex as Sacrament” by Gordon Taylor

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/taylorgr/sxnhst/chap12.htm


    He doesn’t understand BACCAE or the entire body of the work of Euripides.
              Dionysis is horror. This is mytho-dillitantism, Sunday afternoon blather.

              As for death of the father, history begins anew for each generation. The facts
              that Lincoln, Garfield, and McKinley had been assassinated were interesting
              to us brats, but definitely Dark Ages in every respect. Mr Grady has either forgotten,
              or did not live in the period, that WE believed we lived in Blake’s New Jerusalem,
              The Best of All Possible Worlds. 1960-1963 probably saw one of the greatest
              explosions of optimism in the history of the world within the borders of the U.S.A.
              The entire universe appeared ready to open to us, from the stars to the atoms.
              There is not one of us living who cannot recall that tremendous optimism:
              THE NEW FRONTIER!!!!! JFK’s assassination burst that balloon to hell—-
              add to that the seediness of LBJ, the daily ghastliness of Vietnam, the split in
              the fabric of our society——HORROR, HORROR, HORROR!!!!! Altamont and the
              Manson slaughters blew away the Woodstock fantasy. What planet is this guy on?
              His only excuse can be being too young to have lived through that exhilarating
              and terribly unhappy time. JFK’s death socked us all in the solar plexus because
              we believed something that horrible was the provence of other nations. And, the
              whole dreadfulness of it—-his head being blown to pieces&etc. The whole feeling
              of living in a perfected society was blown to bits. And, of course, to so many of us
              Kennedy was a living HERO—-PT 109, the stand against the Soviets in Berlin and
              “Cuber”—-he was our Pericles, our Achilles, our TOTEM against disaster. His
              murder by a revolting creep sullied us all. How could such a shining Lancelot be
              undone by a vermin unfit to breath the same air!!!!!!! WE ALL FELT DANGEROUS-
              LY EXPOSED ALL OF A SUDDEN. That’s what happens when you lose a heroic
              leader. Old Jack looks much less heroic now, but that’s 41 years of hindsight.
              At the time, to so many here and all over the world, he was all that was good and
              great. His death was DEVASTATING. It wasn’t just the death of the father, it was
              the death of our HERO-CHAMPION—-our talisman against disaster.
         
I hope you’re not implying that either Jeff or I are somehow the dreaded Arch-conservative Dimmesdales. That always amazes me about your arguing process. In fact, I think it’s liberal to want Reason to temper the irrational. Do I need to bring up the intellectual forbears of facism? It was Nietzsche’s idea in the Birth of Tragedy, actually, that Euripides was bringing too much Reason to Art. Nietzsche’s insistence on the pure experience of surrender to the Dionysian “All” is nice to think about, but whose Dionysian universe are we submitting to? I won’t bring up the H word. I think Jeff is talking about the optimism in that particular American period of ‘60 to ‘63, with Kennedy, which was shattered by the assassination. And about the Grey Fifties and early Sixties being horrible—yes they were, but what about the Beats in the 50s? How about the Peace Corps? It’s not a liberal vs. conservative issue we’re talking about. It’s the shattering of illusions. The early Sixties were idealistic. I swear you and I apparently didn’t grow up in the same country. I think Jeff and I are talking about the way the Sixties ended up—Altamont, Manson, the way the flower children grew up into Yuppies who were the worst examples of materialism—worse than the button-down Christian Right even—at least those religious people could keep perspective about their spiritual lives—We are saying that the Death of the Father (as embodied in Kennedy’s gory public assasination) twisted our idealism into something narcissistic and We—through the process of gorging on the intricate patterns in our own navels—We, yes We the anointed generation—turned the culture into a frightening Bacchanal more than a benign Agape love fest.

On Aug 1, 2004, at 8:21 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:

I’m 52 old enough to know that the 50’s were horrible. like the 70s 80’s maybe a bit better , the 90’s saw it all starting to go down hill to the worst decades of ever. this is done by the christian right which worships war. talk about worshipping dionysis you guy worship things and objects . soulless crap
optimistic, wasn’t fail-safe and fallout shelters still being built. drop trills in the schools, air raid sirens every friday.
the cuban missile crisis. We were only optimistic cause there was a real ruler who could write his own speeches.
lets face it the conservatives are the ones that pulled the trigger and once they got into power they dragged it down more than any free sex movement did. WE we are worst off and try to show me other wise .  all from conservative policies. imagine trying to buy a house, no such luck

Posted at 5am on 10/24/2004 | comments are closed Filed Under: Under the Lens

"The sleep of reason
brings forth monsters."






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